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A Raveling

  • Dec. 6th, 2003 at 12:40 PM
K
After joking in someone else's journal about a character in a short film using "irregardless" and defining it as being "without lack of regard," I decided to look up irregardless and try to figure out why people use it. I am fairly sure I used it as a child, but it is hard to say. I'll be on the lookout. A friend of mine here at the college said he had never even heard it being used, but then again, he lives in Del Mar, so we can understand why. Anyway, lets's get this show on the road. The American Heritage Dictionary spoke thus about irregardless:
"Irregardless is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing. Coined in the United States in the early 20th century, it has met with a blizzard of condemnation for being an improper yoking of irrespective and regardless and for the logical absurdity of combining the negative ir– prefix and –less suffix in a single term. Although one might reasonably argue that it is no different from words with redundant affixes like debone and unravel, it has been considered a blunder for decades and will probably continue to be so."

But this didn't help; how was unravel as redundant as irregardless? As far as I understood, unravel meant to unwind, to undo a knitted thing, to undo something that was ordered and stiched. I don't use the word "ravel," but it seems to be to... well... To not ravel? Now I am beginning to see the problem. Actually, what the heck could "ravel" or "unravel" mean, and why don't we use it? Again, to the dictionary.
The seemingly contradictory senses of this word (ravel and unravel are both synonyms and antonyms) are reconciled by its roots in weaving and sewing: as threads become unwoven, they get tangled.

Are you started to begin to see complex infinite forms, or is it just me? Dizzying, eh? Sometimes I forget the astounding mysteries my dictionary holds in store.
ravel\Rav"el\, v. i.
1. To become untwisted or unwoven; to be disentangled; to be relieved of intricacy.
2. To fall into perplexity and confusion. [Obs.]
Till, by their own perplexities involved, They ravel more, still less resolved. --Milton.
3. To make investigation or search, as by picking out the threads of a woven pattern. [Obs.]
The humor of raveling into all these mystical or entangled matters. --Sir W. Temple.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

So, A Ravelling?

Comments

[info]novapsyche wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2003 09:50 am (UTC)
I never knew that about ravel and unravel. Neat.
[info]kiad wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2003 12:13 pm (UTC)
Ravel might be my new favourite word. So complex and reflexive. Goodness. *shiver*
[info]paulkakley wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2003 10:01 am (UTC)
I always felt that irregardless was kind of a double negative. Actually intended to mean regarding. Now ravel, that's a new one to me thanks!
[info]kiad wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2003 12:14 pm (UTC)
isn't it strange that we use "unravel" but not ravel?

Enjoy!
[info]kunde_yidang wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2003 01:15 pm (UTC)
who is in the photo? I see the blue, are tehy tuareg?
[info]kiad wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2003 01:28 pm (UTC)
Credit where it is due
The Salt of Life
Life is hard for the nomadic people of the Sahara Desert who live and work along the 450-mile salt road from Timbuktu


SETTING SUN:
Men say evening prayers deep in the Sahara Desert along the salt route. As more and more nomads choose to leave the salt road for more sedentary town life, the sun may be setting on this lifestyle once and for all.
[info]solri wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2003 06:03 pm (UTC)
Re: Credit where it is due
Are they Tuareg? A friend of mine spent some time with them and said they were some of the nicest people in that region. OK, they indulge in some banditry when the salt trade is in recession, but hey, a guy's got to make a living ...
Re: Credit where it is due - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 04:57 am (UTC) Expand
[info]kiad wrote:
Dec. 7th, 2003 04:56 am (UTC)
[info]azul_ros wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2003 02:16 pm (UTC)
I just love how tangents like that occur & lead you towards another thought that never would have occured had the first question come into mind. What's even more interesting is when things come round full circle when going on an info hunt like that.
I've always used the word irregardless to mean that something I'm saying is irreverant regardless of the fact that I've acknowledged it's being so. Like, I know this is not appropriate, but I'm going to say it anyway. I think I've also implied an irrelevant factor into it's meaning, which may be my own incorrect connotation I've attached to it.


That's kind of sad that those people may be losing their ancient way of life in the salt mines!! That's the result of progress I know, but still an old tradition has greater meaning than the mere act of participating in it!
[info]chrysippvs wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2003 10:20 pm (UTC)
Epicurus, a Greek philosopher of dubious worth in my opinion, once said that since atoms have to "swirl" in order to simply not fall through the void (which would disallow for the possibility of things sticking together and reality emerging) that truth itself must be found primarily in tangential relationships. So the tangent, as it emulates the formation of realty itself, is a better candidate for finding truth than simply direct interaction.

This of course makes for interesting fodder for non-linear thinkers like myself and justifies my marking up Kiad's journal so much tonight (although she is a pillar of patience among other things) :)
(no subject) - [info]azul_ros - Dec. 6th, 2003 11:14 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]azul_ros - Dec. 6th, 2003 11:18 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]kiad wrote:
Dec. 7th, 2003 06:47 am (UTC)
I like using antiquated terms, but I fear I won't be able to use "unravel" ever again. So sad.
[info]kfan wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2003 02:30 pm (UTC)
I like irregardless for the same reasons I like dramastically and flustrated.
[info]kiad wrote:
Dec. 7th, 2003 06:45 am (UTC)
haha.

flummoxed
[info]redwill wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2003 02:38 pm (UTC)
Maurice
[info]kiad wrote:
Dec. 7th, 2003 05:07 am (UTC)
I think another trip to Kathmandu is in order. Or perhaps to visit these Tuareg nomads from town of Timia in the West African nation of Niger.

Where next?
(no subject) - [info]redwill - Dec. 7th, 2003 05:57 am (UTC) Expand
[info]raptelan wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2003 04:29 pm (UTC)
Some languages...
Now perhaps you can see why I love Íslensku (please please please tell me to shut up if my incessant banter gets on your nerves and I shall return to being my normal shy self ;-) ). It is such a beautifully structured and simple language that things like this never happen. The problem with english is that it's got soooo many influences from so many languages. An interesting thing I discovered one day was that the english word archaeology (strange spelling, no?), was originally archæology (now that actually makes some sense!). And why the thorn (Þ) was dropped from old english in favor of 'th' I will never understand.

An E-mail I sent to an associate on a development mailing list earlier today:

On Sat, December 06 2003 09:50, Jason Keirstead wrote:
> Language (especially English) is dynamic, constantly growing and changing,
> it's not like Mathematics where you can define it's rules in a book.

(Just for your interest, nothing of contribution value here)

*Some* languages. Icelandic has only slightly changed over the course of
time, such that if you learn Old Norse, you automatically know it except for
pronunciation differences, and a modern-day Icelander can pick up a
1000-year-old saga and read it with ease. Their language, like other
scandinavian languages, form new words by combining simpler smaller words
(i.e. a word for E-mail, tölvupóstur, is formed by combination of tölva
(computer) and póstur (post, mail)). Sometimes though a new short word for
something is needed, so there is a section of the government there which
comes up with these, and they do so by recycling old, dead words (A word
which originally meant a thin skin which you would stretch over a window hole
to block wind but allow light through became the word for computer monitor,
for instance) or by forming new ones as a last resort based upon
similarity to existing similar words in the language (i.e. the word for
computer, tölva, is derived from the word for arithmetic, tölvisi) in such a
manner that the meaning is literally "arithmetic processor".
[info]raptelan wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2003 04:32 pm (UTC)
Re: Some languages...
And I urge you also to look at this, that is if my Icelandic banter hasn't knocked you fast asleep for a hundred year nap yet.
Re: ſome languageſ... - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 05:17 am (UTC) Expand
Re: ſome languageſ... - [info]raptelan - Dec. 9th, 2003 07:45 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]chrysippvs wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2003 04:38 pm (UTC)
Re: Some languages...
And why the thorn (Þ) was dropped from old english in favor of 'th' I will never understand.

Because the Normans were just that much of an influence.

I love reading Old English and Old Norse - even wrote a few poems in it a while back - although I am pretty rusty now. I learned it over the period of a Winter Break while learning to read from the Exeter Book and Njal's saga.

Do you read the Sagas etc?
Re: Some languages... - [info]raptelan - Dec. 6th, 2003 05:14 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]chrysippvs - Dec. 6th, 2003 10:04 pm (UTC) Expand
fie! - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 05:52 am (UTC) Expand
Re: fie! - [info]chrysippvs - Dec. 7th, 2003 07:03 am (UTC) Expand
Re: fie! - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 11:45 am (UTC) Expand
Re: fie! - [info]chrysippvs - Dec. 7th, 2003 12:18 pm (UTC) Expand
It's all Ðat! - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 05:57 am (UTC) Expand
[info]kiad wrote:
Dec. 7th, 2003 05:11 am (UTC)
Re: Some languages...
I raþer enjoy using ðese letters, my only question is, when is it appropriate to use ð over þ?

(Yes, I know how to use the alt-key international keyboard modifiers. whoo)
Re: Some languages... - [info]raptelan - Dec. 7th, 2003 06:50 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]chrysippvs - Dec. 7th, 2003 07:09 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 07:09 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]chrysippvs - Dec. 7th, 2003 07:18 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 08:11 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]chrysippvs - Dec. 7th, 2003 08:43 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 11:49 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]chrysippvs - Dec. 7th, 2003 12:24 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]shipbrook - Dec. 7th, 2003 02:08 pm (UTC) Expand
Cleave the paradoxical! - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 03:40 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]chrysippvs - Dec. 7th, 2003 06:53 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 07:03 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]chrysippvs - Dec. 7th, 2003 07:10 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 08:12 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]chrysippvs - Dec. 7th, 2003 08:39 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 11:52 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]chrysippvs - Dec. 7th, 2003 12:33 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]raptelan - Dec. 7th, 2003 07:01 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 07:28 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]raptelan - Dec. 7th, 2003 08:02 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]raptelan - Dec. 7th, 2003 08:06 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 08:16 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 08:13 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]raptelan - Dec. 7th, 2003 01:38 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]raptelan - Dec. 7th, 2003 10:11 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]genkobar - Dec. 7th, 2003 10:01 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 10:09 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]genkobar - Dec. 7th, 2003 10:18 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]kiad - Dec. 8th, 2003 04:34 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]genkobar - Dec. 8th, 2003 11:41 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]kiad - Dec. 9th, 2003 10:29 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]genkobar - Dec. 10th, 2003 11:05 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Some languages... - [info]raptelan - Dec. 7th, 2003 10:50 pm (UTC) Expand
Hey, pretty good! - [info]genkobar - Dec. 9th, 2003 12:01 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Hey, pretty good! - [info]raptelan - Dec. 9th, 2003 06:54 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Hey, pretty good! - [info]raptelan - Dec. 9th, 2003 08:10 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]solri wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2003 06:04 pm (UTC)
I think you're misunderestimating the problem ;-)
[info]kiad wrote:
Dec. 7th, 2003 05:54 am (UTC)
It's þat big a deal, eh?
Watch out. I þink I'm becoming a pedant.

At leaſt, about ligatures and two wordſ I juſt learned. Ðat can't be pedantiſm. Perhapſ inſanity?
Re: It's þat big a deal, eh? - [info]raptelan - Dec. 7th, 2003 06:53 am (UTC) Expand
Re: It's þat big a deal, eh? - [info]kiad - Dec. 7th, 2003 08:15 am (UTC) Expand
[info]regohemia wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2003 08:37 pm (UTC)
Maybe irregardless grew out of a subconscious combination of regardless with the phrase "in regards to"... since there aren't that many situations where "regard" gets used, I could see where the rhythm of speech could lead you to slap them together.
Dime store linguistic theory, but, its possible.

-Me
[info]kiad wrote:
Dec. 7th, 2003 06:01 am (UTC)
*laugh*, I suppose the thing that is interesting is how people adopt language into their speech without really understanding it. Like, "For Pete's sake!" or "irregardless."

People are strange.
[info]bongemucoffee wrote:
Dec. 8th, 2003 05:32 am (UTC)
well the dictionary never really helped me before
[info]kiad wrote:
Dec. 8th, 2003 11:03 am (UTC)
Love your dictionary, and your dictionary will love you. I suggest starting with all the dirty words first. Those are the best.
(no subject) - [info]bongemucoffee - Dec. 10th, 2003 08:59 am (UTC) Expand